Emigration to the US on the ship Munchen

[Gundemarie Scholz]

Hello,

according to the castlegarden.org records my great-grandmothers brother and
family emigrated to the US, arriving on 06 August 1889 on board the ship
MUNCHEN (which I presume is supposed to be "München") from Bremen.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/München_(1889) suggests the ship went into
service in 1889, but went to New York only from 1890.

The NY Times archive has scanned arrivals in their "Maritime Intelligence"
section. I went through the records from 05/08 to 18/08
(http://snurl.com/1dfufv), without success.

Then there is an image archive on
http://library.mysticseaport.org/ere/oindex.cfm with lots of pictures, and I
found other ships that were used for emigration, but again not the
"München".

I would appreciate any other suggestions where I might search.

Kind regards,
Gunde

[Joseph Pessarra]

Post by Gundemarie Scholz
Hello,
according to the castlegarden.org records my great-grandmothers brother and
family emigrated to the US, arriving on 06 August 1889 on board the ship
MUNCHEN (which I presume is supposed to be "München") from Bremen.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/München_(1889) suggests the ship went into
service in 1889, but went to New York only from 1890.
The NY Times archive has scanned arrivals in their "Maritime Intelligence"
section. I went through the records from 05/08 to 18/08
(http://snurl.com/1dfufv), without success.
Then there is an image archive on
http://library.mysticseaport.org/ere/oindex.cfm with lots of pictures, and I
found other ships that were used for emigration, but again not the
"München".
I would appreciate any other suggestions where I might search.
Kind regards,
Gunde

What are the names of the people you searched for in the Castle Garden
records? A little more information might help us to help you.

I do see lots of arriving passengers (1,591), some on the 6th of August on
the Munchen in 1889 in the Castle Garden records. Some are as early as
June. Some are from Russia, and I notice your email address is in Russia.

The Castle Garden site has a timeline which shows that immigrants landed for
the last time at Castle Garden, and that Ellis Island became the US
immigration center in 1892. So there might be some confusion as to the New
York comment in Wikipedia, since both locations are essentially at New York
City. There was also the Barge Office, New York City, used between the two
other sites for a time. Here is the timeline:

Aug 1, 1855 - April 18, 1890...Castle Garden

April 19, 1890 - Dec 31, 1891...Barge Office

Jan 1, 1892 - June 14, 1897...Ellis Island

Joe in Texas

[Gundemarie Scholz]

Post by Joseph Pessarra

Post by Gundemarie Scholz
according to the castlegarden.org records my great-grandmothers
brother and family emigrated to the US, arriving on 06 August 1889
on board the ship MUNCHEN (which I presume is supposed to be
"München") from Bremen.

What are the names of the people you searched for in the Castle Garden
records? A little more information might help us to help you.

The family name is Kiesow, and you should see five hits when searching for
that name and the "MUNCHEN" and 1889, for parents and three children. I know
where they went so I really am only looking for more information about the
ship itself.

Post by Joseph Pessarra
I do see lots of arriving passengers (1,591), some on the 6th of
August on the Munchen in 1889 in the Castle Garden records. Some are
as early as June. Some are from Russia, and I notice your email
address is in Russia.

Well done for spotting that, but actually I am German, and I use this
address almost exclusively in usenet, it has proven quite resilient against
spam and worms.

Post by Joseph Pessarra
The Castle Garden site has a timeline which shows that immigrants
landed for the last time at Castle Garden, and that Ellis Island
became the US immigration center in 1892. So there might be some
confusion as to the New York comment in Wikipedia, since both
locations are essentially at New York City. There was also the Barge
Office, New York City, used between the two other sites for a time.

Sorry, I didn't quite understand what you wanted to say there. I assume the
Castle Garden records are correct, and that they indeed arrived in 1889 in
New York. I would have expected that the NY Times archive would then have
listed the ship as well; I tested and found matches for other ships
mentioned.

Kind regards,
Gunde

[Herman]

Gunde

Here they are:

http://www.castlegarden.org/search_02.php?m_ship=munchen&po_port=bremen&p_first_name=&p_last_name=kiesow&o_occ=&co_country=&province=&town=&m_arr_date_start=1889&m_arr_date_end=1889&submit.x=38&submit.y=21

Herman

[Gundemarie Scholz]

[link snipped]

Yes, I know. The Castle Garden records were the starting point for my query
about the ship. Do you have any idea where else to search for information
about the "München"?

Kind regards,
Gunde

[Herman]

Post by Gundemarie Scholz
[link snipped]
Yes, I know. The Castle Garden records were the starting point for my query
about the ship. Do you have any idea where else to search for information
about the "München"?
Kind regards,
Gunde

Sorry, Gunde, I misread you original posting and misinterpreted your
question. I have found two links that might be of interest although
they give conflicting information:
http://www.norwayheritage.com/p_ship.asp?sh=munc1
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~banatdata/DDB/Photos/ShipPages/S0102.htm

Herman

[Gundemarie Scholz]

Post by Herman
Sorry, Gunde, I misread you original posting and misinterpreted your
question.

Actually, having re-read my first posting, I think I should have been more
clear on what I am looking for.

Post by Herman
I have found two links that might be of interest although
http://www.norwayheritage.com/p_ship.asp?sh=munc1

That page states it got its information from various web sources so I wonder
if they just based the entry for 06/08/1889 on the Castle Garden records.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~banatdata/DDB/Photos/ShipPages/S0102.htm

"On 5/6/1889 she commenced her first Bremen - Baltimore voyage and on
25/9/1890 started her first Bremen - New York - Baltimore crossing." - that
would coincide with the Wikipedia article as well.

Hmm, would there maybe be a more suitable newsgroup? misc.transport.marine
is the only one that seems halfway appropriate.

Kind regards,
Gunde

[Richard van Schaik]

Post by Herman

Post by Gundemarie Scholz
[link snipped]
Yes, I know. The Castle Garden records were the starting point for my query
about the ship. Do you have any idea where else to search for information
about the "München"?
Kind regards,
Gunde

Sorry, Gunde, I misread you original posting and misinterpreted your
question. I have found two links that might be of interest although
http://www.norwayheritage.com/p_ship.asp?sh=munc1
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~banatdata/DDB/Photos/ShipPages/S0102.htm

Also:
http://www.irlandeses.org/Dresdens.htm
http://homepage.mac.com/ourhistory/Filipek/Records/SHIP_Munchen_1889_Filipek_Wenzel.html

Richard

[Gundemarie Scholz]

Richard van Schaik wrote:
http://homepage.mac.com/ourhistory/Filipek/Records/SHIP_Munchen_1889_Filipek_Wenzel.html

That one was quite interesting as it mentions Baltimore as destination. It
would coincide with the other dates given for the München's journeys. It
seems ancestry.com indeed has several Kiesows for 1889 in the Baltimore
Passenger Lists, 1820-1948, the only difference being that the mother's
first name Augusta mutated from "Auge" (castlegarden.org) to "Ange".

Would anybody have access to the records on ancestry.com and verify the
details or maybe mail me a copy of the ship's manifest?

And if the ship really went to Baltimore, how come the "München" records can
be found on castlegarden.org?

Kind regards,
Gunde

[Richard van Schaik]

Post by Richard van Schaik
http://homepage.mac.com/ourhistory/Filipek/Records/SHIP_Munchen_1889_Filipek_Wenzel.html
That one was quite interesting as it mentions Baltimore as destination. It
would coincide with the other dates given for the München's journeys. It
seems ancestry.com indeed has several Kiesows for 1889 in the Baltimore
Passenger Lists, 1820-1948, the only difference being that the mother's
first name Augusta mutated from "Auge" (castlegarden.org) to "Ange".
Would anybody have access to the records on ancestry.com and verify the
details or maybe mail me a copy of the ship's manifest?
And if the ship really went to Baltimore, how come the "München" records can
be found on castlegarden.org?

On this page it says:
Note, the National Archives Microfilm for the first page of the Munchen
Passenger List is for New York. I believe the Munchen continued to
Baltimore after stopping in New York and I did not copy the page header
showing Baltimore arrivals

The first page of the shipmanifest is also there (horrible quality if I
may say so).

Richard

[Joan Lowrey]

The Castle Garden database sometimes incorrectly includes ships that
arrived in Baltimore and also New Orleans. Additionally, it includes
ships that arrived from 1820-1854 which was before Castle Garden
opened as a processing center for immigrants, and 1890-1913, after
Castle Garden closed. This is very misleading, to say the least. (For
some reason, Steve Morse's site starts with 1830 rather than 1820; a
search on a passenger who arrived in 1820, according to Castle
Garden, was not found on his site).

The problem exists for numerous ships that were headed for Baltimore
but whose first page of the manifest shows arrival in New York. This
has been discussed several times over the years on the mail lists for
the Association of Professional Genealogists. As I can recall the
discussion, it occurred on ships that sometimes sailed to New York,
and sometimes sailed to Baltimore. If the captain ran out of forms
that were headed "Port of Baltimore", he used one headed "Port of New
York" and was then supposed to cross out the header and put in
Baltimore. But some neglected to do that. The manifests were
correctly cataloged by the National Archives as Baltimore arrivals,
but database creators/indexers picked up the New York headers and
grouped them with New York. Posters to the mail list cited numerous
ship lists and compared the pages within each manifest. It was also
noted that all the passengers showed Baltimore as their destination,
so there would have been no need for the ship to stop in New York.

I personally checked a manifest for an 1850 New Orleans arrival,
where the family information held that the three sisters from Germany
arrived in New Orleans, then traveled up the Mississippi river to St.
Louis, Missouri. They are listed in the Castle Garden database. The
New Orleans arrivals microfilm lists them, with no mention of any
stop in New York. I checked New York arrivals for several weeks prior
to the New Orleans arrival and that ship did not arrive in New York.

The National Archives has one or more films of New York ship arrivals
sorted by ship name, and another list sorted by date These are just
one line entries, and give the captain's name; there are no passenger
names. I did not have access to that film where I live, in
California, but I found a person in St. Louis, where the film was
available, who checked if for me and sent me copies. This was for
another ship which arrived in the 1870s. I needed to prove the
arrival date -- it was not one of the Baltimore / New Orleans / New
York problems.

Also, The New York Times listed ships that arrived every day. Perhaps
you could verify the Munchen that way.

There are many errors in the passenger lists and the indexes, as well
as the cataloging and filming by the National Archives. I give a
lecture entitled, "Passenger Lists: Did they really come on that
ship?", showing 7 or 8 cases where the passengers did not arrive on
the date the National Archive said they did, or on the named ship, or
at Castle Garden. Fortunately some ships left from Hamburg and the
departure date and ship could be checked.

Joan Neumann Lowrey

[Gundemarie Scholz]

Joan Lowrey wrote:
[long and very informative information snipped]

Post by Joan Lowrey
Also, The New York Times listed ships that arrived every day. Perhaps
you could verify the Munchen that way.

I verified the listed ships for the period 05/08-18/08/1889, and the
"München" was not among the arrivals.

Post by Joan Lowrey
Fortunately some ships left from Hamburg and the
departure date and ship could be checked.

They left from Bremen, and the German emigrant database (Deutsche
Auswanderer-Datenbank, http://www.deutsche-auswanderer-datenbank.de/) in
Bremerhaven holds records for "my" family as well, including the likely
spelling error for the wife. Looking at the examples it seems they don't
offer copies of the original ship manifest or emigration records, but
transcriptions of the National Archive records so the error regarding New
York would persist, wouldn't it?

So how safe is it to assume that indeed the "München" went to Baltimore, and
that the family did not disembark in New York?

Kind regards,
Gunde

[Richard van Schaik]

Post by Gundemarie Scholz
[long and very informative information snipped]

Post by Joan Lowrey
Also, The New York Times listed ships that arrived every day. Perhaps
you could verify the Munchen that way.

I verified the listed ships for the period 05/08-18/08/1889, and the
"München" was not among the arrivals.

You could try to ask the owner of previous site given for this first
page (maybe (s)he has a better copy than on the site). Further this
seems an awful mixture of miss transcriptions / miss information or the
like and I do hope you can get the facts out of this mess.

Richard

[Joseph Pessarra]

Post by Joan Lowrey
The Castle Garden database sometimes incorrectly includes ships that
arrived in Baltimore and also New Orleans

(Rest of message snipped.)

Joan, we really appreciate that information. We will make it a topic for
the next meeting of two of our local genealogical societies. Have never
seen that good an explanation of arrival location possibilities in one
place. Thanks.

Joe in Texas

[W. Fred Rump]

Joe, give that girl plenty of credit. She knows her stuff. I'm impressed.
Fred


On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 7:09 PM, Joseph Pessarra

Post by Joseph Pessarra

Post by Joan Lowrey
The Castle Garden database sometimes incorrectly includes ships that
arrived in Baltimore and also New Orleans

(Rest of message snipped.)
Joan, we really appreciate that information.  We will make it a topic for
the next meeting of two of our local genealogical societies.  Have never
seen that good an explanation of arrival location possibilities in one
place.  Thanks.
Joe in Texas
-------------------------------

[Joan Lowrey]

Thank you, Fred and Joe.

Joan Neumann Lowrey

Post by W. Fred Rump
Joe, give that girl plenty of credit. She knows her stuff. I'm impressed.
Fred
On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 7:09 PM, Joseph Pessarra

Post by Joseph Pessarra

Post by Joan Lowrey
The Castle Garden database sometimes incorrectly includes ships that
arrived in Baltimore and also New Orleans

(Rest of message snipped.)
Joan, we really appreciate that information. We will make it a topic for
the next meeting of two of our local genealogical societies. Have never
seen that good an explanation of arrival location possibilities in one
place. Thanks.
Joe in Texas
-------------------------------
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quotes in the subject and the body of the message
--
Fred Rump,
730 5th St. NW Naples, FL 34120
http://www.rumpfamily1.phanfare.com
http://fredrump.blogspot.com
http://www.rump.net/genealogy/
-------------------------------
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quotes in the subject and the body of the message

[Tom Lemsky]

Post by Joan Lowrey
Thank you, Fred and Joe.
Joan Neumann Lowrey

Post by W. Fred Rump
Joe, give that girl plenty of credit. She knows her stuff. I'm impressed.
Fred
On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 7:09 PM, Joseph Pessarra

Post by Joseph Pessarra

Post by Joan Lowrey
The Castle Garden database sometimes incorrectly includes ships that
arrived in Baltimore and also New Orleans

(Rest of message snipped.)
Joan, we really appreciate that information. We will make it a topic for
the next meeting of two of our local genealogical societies. Have never
seen that good an explanation of arrival location possibilities in one
place. Thanks.
Joe in Texas
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to

quotes in the subject and the body of the message
--
Fred Rump,
730 5th St. NW Naples, FL 34120
http://www.rumpfamily1.phanfare.com
http://fredrump.blogspot.com
http://www.rump.net/genealogy/
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Is it possible there was another ship called the Munchen?

[W. Fred Rump]

Nice post Joan.
Fred

Post by Joan Lowrey
The Castle Garden database sometimes incorrectly includes ships that
arrived in Baltimore and also New Orleans. Additionally, it includes
ships that arrived from 1820-1854 which was before Castle Garden
opened as a processing center for immigrants, and 1890-1913, after
Castle Garden closed. This is very misleading, to say the least. (For
some reason, Steve Morse's site starts with 1830 rather than 1820; a
search on a passenger who arrived in 1820, according to Castle
Garden, was not found on his site).
The problem exists for numerous ships that were headed for Baltimore
but whose first page of the manifest shows arrival in New York. This
has been discussed several times over the years on the mail lists for
the Association of Professional Genealogists. As I can recall the
discussion, it occurred on ships that sometimes sailed to New York,
and sometimes sailed to Baltimore. If the captain ran out of forms
that were headed "Port of Baltimore", he used one headed "Port of New
York" and was then supposed to cross out the header and put in
Baltimore. But some neglected to do that. The manifests were
correctly cataloged by the National Archives as Baltimore arrivals,
but database creators/indexers picked up the New York headers and
grouped them with New York. Posters to the mail list cited numerous
ship lists and compared the pages within each manifest. It was also
noted that all the passengers showed Baltimore as their destination,
so there would have been no need for the ship to stop in New York.
I personally checked a manifest for an 1850 New Orleans arrival,
where the family information held that the three sisters from Germany
arrived in New Orleans, then traveled up the Mississippi river to St.
Louis, Missouri. They are listed in the Castle Garden database. The
New Orleans arrivals microfilm lists them, with no mention of any
stop in New York. I checked New York arrivals for several weeks prior
to the New Orleans arrival and that ship did not arrive in New York.
The National Archives has one or more films of New York ship arrivals
sorted by ship name, and another list sorted by date These are just
one line entries, and give the captain's name; there are no passenger
names. I did not have access to that film where I live, in
California, but I found a person in St. Louis, where the film was
available, who checked if for me and sent me copies. This was for
another ship which arrived in the 1870s. I needed to prove the
arrival date -- it was not one of the Baltimore / New Orleans / New
York problems.
Also, The New York Times listed ships that arrived every day. Perhaps
you could verify the Munchen that way.
There are many errors in the passenger lists and the indexes, as well
as the cataloging and filming by the National Archives. I give a
lecture entitled, "Passenger Lists: Did they really come on that
ship?", showing 7 or 8 cases where the passengers did not arrive on
the date the National Archive said they did, or on the named ship, or
at Castle Garden. Fortunately some ships left from Hamburg and the
departure date and ship could be checked.
Joan Neumann Lowrey
-------------------------------

[Richard van Schaik]

Post by W. Fred Rump
Nice post Joan.

Certainly as it shows how much to trust transcriptions (especially those
without original given) and internet sources.

Richard

[Richard van Schaik]

The site http://stevemorse.org/ellis/cg.html gives a nice timeline for
New York (as well as search options).

Richard

[Joseph Pessarra]

Post by Gundemarie Scholz

Post by Joseph Pessarra

Post by Gundemarie Scholz
according to the castlegarden.org records my great-grandmothers
brother and family emigrated to the US, arriving on 06 August 1889
on board the ship MUNCHEN (which I presume is supposed to be
"München") from Bremen.

The Castle Garden site has a timeline which shows that immigrants
landed for the last time at Castle Garden, and that Ellis Island
became the US immigration center in 1892. So there might be some
confusion as to the New York comment in Wikipedia, since both
locations are essentially at New York City. There was also the Barge
Office, New York City, used between the two other sites for a time.

Sorry, I didn't quite understand what you wanted to say there. I assume the
Castle Garden records are correct, and that they indeed arrived in 1889 in
New York. I would have expected that the NY Times archive would then have
listed the ship as well; I tested and found matches for other ships
mentioned.

No wonder you did not understand what I meant to say. I left out a year.
The paragraph should read as:

The Castle Garden site has a timeline which shows that immigrants landed in
"1890" for the last time at Castle Garden, and that Ellis Island became the
US immigration center in 1892. So there might be some confusion as to the
New York comment in Wikipedia, since both locations are essentially at New
York City. There was also the Barge Office, New York City, used between the
two other sites for a time.

The Castle Garden site has entries from 1820 to 1892, and include the Barge
Office entrants.

So, the comment in Wikipedia might be misleading as to saying that the first
trip made to New York by the München was in 1890. Whoever did the research
must have either mistyped the date, or did not research the Castle Garden
(New York) site for their information.

So, I agree with you, that the Castle Garden records are correct, and the
Wikipedia reference is not correct.

Looks like you have been given some other good sites to research more on the
München. Good luck with that.

Joe in Texas (wishing he was in Germany, visiting his cousins).

[Herman]

At http://www.castlegarden.org/index.php you can search for (and find)
the passengerslist for the Munchen arriving in New york on August 6
1889

Herman

[Sharon Rednor]

Post by Gundemarie Scholz
Hello,
according to the castlegarden.org records my great-grandmothers brother and
family emigrated to the US, arriving on 06 August 1889 on board the ship
MUNCHEN (which I presume is supposed to be "München") from Bremen.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/München_(1889) suggests the ship went into
service in 1889, but went to New York only from 1890.
The NY Times archive has scanned arrivals in their "Maritime Intelligence"
section. I went through the records from 05/08 to 18/08
(http://snurl.com/1dfufv), without success.
Then there is an image archive on
http://library.mysticseaport.org/ere/oindex.cfm with lots of pictures, and I
found other ships that were used for emigration, but again not the
"München".
I would appreciate any other suggestions where I might search.
Kind regards,
Gunde

Did you ever find the manifest for the MUNCHEN arriving on 06 Aug 1889? Naturalization files list that my relatives were on that ship too.

Sharon Pavelich Rednor